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misachanReading one of the topics from ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
metafandom reminded me of a couple other discussion I've read recently, which in turn reminded me that I have absolutely no idea how a good portion of the Buffy fandom thinks.
I really liked Spike/Buffy. I was shipping them together in one way or another since the end of season two, not because I thought they were true love but because they would be a really spectacular trainwreck. And they were.:) I was happy. I love it when my read on characters is validated onscreen; it's why I was thrilled when it came out on Smallville that Lionel really did have comic!Lex's origin, even though Lionel is one of my favorite characters, and one really shouldn't wish horrible childhood abuse on favorite characters (although Lionel probably deserves it). That I still admit to liking Spike/Buffy (and season 6) already sets me apart from a good portion of fandom, but Seeing Red is where I start to wonder if I was watching a different show.
To me, the season 6 Spike/Buffy storyline was trying to say two things: the line between having a soul and not is blurrier than the characters would like, and playing with fire will get you burned (the season as a whole is, "Be careful what you wish for"). I saw the rape coming; Buffy and Spike had been playing with abuse and non-con the whole season, and I knew something was coming to a head because I remembered something Buffy seemed to have forgotten: Spike was a soulless monster. Of course he was going to snap eventually. What I thought was significant about the whole scene wasn't that he tried to rape her. It was that he stopped.
Not only did he stop, but he was clearly horrified by what he was about to do. Think about that for a second. This is a character who, a season or so prior, regularly killed people and drank their blood. He spent decades with Dru, who had tea parties with corpses. And we all know Angelus' reputation. But in that scene, this soulless abomination is repulsed that he almost raped someone (almost! Angelus would have bitten her, raped her, than done a life-size sketch and pinned it to the door).
This was amazing. After the episode, I went online to see what everyone else thought...and well, we all know what everyone else thought.:)
"OMG! Spike raped Buffy! They made him evil! Joss ruined Spuffy! This show sucks now! How could Spike rape Buffy, he looooooves her." And so on. With worse spelling.
Meanwhile, I'm sputtering, "But...but he's a vampire! He has no soul!" I still don't understand the flailing about that scene; it's like having a tiger for a pet, alternately smacking it in the face and scratching behind its ears, then falling over in shock when it bites you. Of course it bit you. It's a tiger. Petting it isn't going to make it forget its nature, just like Buffy knocking down walls with Spike isn't going to make him not a vampire. Especially when she's smacking him in the face every other episode.
The rape wasn't the point. That soulless Spike felt remorse for it was the point, since he shouldn't even be capable of the emotion.
Whenever this argument crops up, I never feel comfortable jumping in, because I know "But he felt bad! Isn't that amazing?" sounds horrible and endorsing of rape. No one ever deserves to be raped, although I would have liked to see Buffy take more responsibility for creating the situation in the first place, rather than just "Spike evil!"
But it is amazing. Even if no one else thinks so.
metafandom reminded me of a couple other discussion I've read recently, which in turn reminded me that I have absolutely no idea how a good portion of the Buffy fandom thinks.I really liked Spike/Buffy. I was shipping them together in one way or another since the end of season two, not because I thought they were true love but because they would be a really spectacular trainwreck. And they were.:) I was happy. I love it when my read on characters is validated onscreen; it's why I was thrilled when it came out on Smallville that Lionel really did have comic!Lex's origin, even though Lionel is one of my favorite characters, and one really shouldn't wish horrible childhood abuse on favorite characters (although Lionel probably deserves it). That I still admit to liking Spike/Buffy (and season 6) already sets me apart from a good portion of fandom, but Seeing Red is where I start to wonder if I was watching a different show.
To me, the season 6 Spike/Buffy storyline was trying to say two things: the line between having a soul and not is blurrier than the characters would like, and playing with fire will get you burned (the season as a whole is, "Be careful what you wish for"). I saw the rape coming; Buffy and Spike had been playing with abuse and non-con the whole season, and I knew something was coming to a head because I remembered something Buffy seemed to have forgotten: Spike was a soulless monster. Of course he was going to snap eventually. What I thought was significant about the whole scene wasn't that he tried to rape her. It was that he stopped.
Not only did he stop, but he was clearly horrified by what he was about to do. Think about that for a second. This is a character who, a season or so prior, regularly killed people and drank their blood. He spent decades with Dru, who had tea parties with corpses. And we all know Angelus' reputation. But in that scene, this soulless abomination is repulsed that he almost raped someone (almost! Angelus would have bitten her, raped her, than done a life-size sketch and pinned it to the door).
This was amazing. After the episode, I went online to see what everyone else thought...and well, we all know what everyone else thought.:)
"OMG! Spike raped Buffy! They made him evil! Joss ruined Spuffy! This show sucks now! How could Spike rape Buffy, he looooooves her." And so on. With worse spelling.
Meanwhile, I'm sputtering, "But...but he's a vampire! He has no soul!" I still don't understand the flailing about that scene; it's like having a tiger for a pet, alternately smacking it in the face and scratching behind its ears, then falling over in shock when it bites you. Of course it bit you. It's a tiger. Petting it isn't going to make it forget its nature, just like Buffy knocking down walls with Spike isn't going to make him not a vampire. Especially when she's smacking him in the face every other episode.
The rape wasn't the point. That soulless Spike felt remorse for it was the point, since he shouldn't even be capable of the emotion.
Whenever this argument crops up, I never feel comfortable jumping in, because I know "But he felt bad! Isn't that amazing?" sounds horrible and endorsing of rape. No one ever deserves to be raped, although I would have liked to see Buffy take more responsibility for creating the situation in the first place, rather than just "Spike evil!"
But it is amazing. Even if no one else thinks so.
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-12 02:30 am (UTC)That said, I think the problem with the episode and the reason it's become such a stumbling block for people is that rape is so mundane (carrying on the theme of latter seasons to ditch metaphors and just go straight ahead). If in the same situation, Spike would have bitten her (trying to turn her, perhaps) this would have reminded the audience that he was what you say: a soulless monster. Rape is something a human can do just as well, and because the show had spent so much time softening Spike down, the audience had become detached from the bitey badass Spike of season 2. (Still my favourite Spike, btw.) He doesn't act like a vampire in that scene, but as a fucked-up human, and so that was what they saw.
I could go on talking about this, but it'd only end up a rant about the late seasons of Buffy in general, so I won't. :-)
no subject
Date: 2005-08-12 12:54 pm (UTC)Rape is something a human can do just as well, and because the show had spent so much time softening Spike down, the audience had become detached from the bitey badass Spike of season 2.
I think that was intentional, though. The characters had become detached from the bitey badass, so when that scene happens, it's all very, "Whoa, hold up! That's right, you're evil!" Meanwhile, the evil character is wracked with remorse, something up until now he's not even supposed to be capable of without a soul. I thought it was all fascinating. Spike is unique among BTVS vampires; the only comparable vamp is Darla on AtS.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-13 09:40 am (UTC)I'm not sure you fully understand me. I'm fine with the purpose of the scene - to show that Spike is still a monster, but also that he really has changed - but the way it was executed doesn't show Spike's vampiric nature. He doesn't try to bite Buffy or go into game face, and when she fights him off it's with plain physical violence (instead of, say, with a cross). There is absolutely nothing that's done by Spike in that scene that couldn't have been done by a human, and yet the audience is supposed to go "Right. Vampire. Bad."
What got me caught on BtVS in the first place was how it could take trite television clichés and make them new by turning them paranormal/metaphorical. Seeing Red to me is a prime example of how the show went wrong, because it's a pivotal scene between two main characters that doesn't in any way show us the ways in which they're different from ordinary humans.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-01 05:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-01 11:16 pm (UTC)Friends?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-02 07:11 am (UTC)A Quilt for Kielle
Date: 2005-09-15 04:51 pm (UTC)You may not know me, but you know Kielle. If not, please forgive me, as I found you listed in her "friends" file.
I am making a quilt for Kielle. Why? Because she is ill. To put it bluntly, she has cancer. If you are not aware, or have not heard, please refer to her LJ. Chris has been keeping her journal updated for the interim.
So what am I asking for, and how much will it cost? It will cost you the time it takes to email a picture of yourself (or representing yourself) and words of encouragement to me to be added into her quilt.
You see, I have the blocks nearly done, and they still look… well, "bare" is the best thing I can think of. Then I had the idea of dozens of her internet friends sending her well-wishes into the blank spots of the quilt and the idea has been chewing away at me.
So I am asking everyone on her Friends list (and elsewhere) to pitch in and add their smiling mugs to the quilt. You don't even have to use your real name, you can give me the name she knows you by. Just make sure there's a name attached to it can go onto the block with the right face.
Please send it all to me sometime before October 25. Anytime after that, and I will have already sent it off. I would like Kielle to receive the quilt by October 31, as that is a special day for her and Chris.
Send to: Deb Matthews at: sabrebabe at chartermi dot net